In this YouTube video, Seventh-day Adventist Dwayne Lemon answers a question from the audience regarding the Trinity. The transcript of the video with time stamp is shown below. The doctrine of the Trinity is being questioned in the church and it’s important for every person to make intelligent decisions based on the evidence.
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Dwayne Lemon Trinity Q&A Transcript
[0:01] Amen. Any other questions?
[0:02] Who else has a question. Okay. We have a hand here.
[0:04] And then my sister here.
[0:09] Audience: A friend of mine is come to me with the view of the Trinity.
[0:18] Audience: Trinitarian view of the what we believe in the SDA church now
[0:23] Audience: says it’s contrary to what our pioneers believed.
[0:27] Audience: I’m still working on it but what’s the
[0:31] Audience: true position of the trinitarian position?
[0:35] Audience: quoting people like Froom
[0:38] Audience: who was one of us but quoted outside sources
[0:45] Audience: and then linking them to spirit of prophecy
[0:48] Audience: and then coming out with the trinitarian doctrine.
Jets of Light Comments
A brother asks Dwayne Lemon a question about the Trinity.
The brother relays a story about a friend who explained to him that LeRoy Froom a Seventh-day Adventist minister and historian quoted outside sources and then linked them to spirit of prophecy writings.
Article: 7 Ways LeRoy Froom Helped SDA’s Embrace the Trinity
[0:51] Of course. Well, number one the first thing that we would have to remember is this:
[0:55] The word Trinity does not mean what a lot of people say it means.
[1:01] That’s the first point.
[1:02] In other words when a lot of people here the word Trinity
[1:04] we often think “oh oh” Roman Catholicism
[1:07] and there’s a hierarchy and all this other stuff
[1:09] where God’s over here, the Son is over here, and the Spirit of God is this that and the other
[1:13] but the word Trinity simply means a group of three.
[1:15] That’s what the word Trinity means simply by definition.
[1:19] A group of three. Okay, so that’s point number one that I want them to undersand.
[1:23] Is did our pioneers and did Ellen White herself acknowledge three eternal persons?
[1:28] Did they acknowledge Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
[1:31] That will be the first point. And the answer is yes.
[1:33] Then secondly, I would say how are you going to use the spirit of prophecy
[1:37] to try to disprove it when Evangelism page 616 clearly says
[1:41] The Holy Spirit is a person with a personality.
[1:46] So I’m like you can’t get away from that.
[1:50] Because the anti-trinitarian movement
[1:51] there not simply against the name there against the concept.
[1:54] and they believe the Holy Spirit not a person or a being
[1:57] but more so a force or an energy that exudes from Christ or the Father.
[2:02] but if they using Ellen White, I just ask them
[2:05] what are you going to do with Evangelism 616
[2:07] Evangelism 616 clearly says the Holy Spirit is a person with a personality.
[2:15] That is a clear direct statement.
[2:16] So for me that shuts it down as far as Ellen White is concerned.
[2:20] The Bible, in Acts chapter 5, one minute they come together in Acts the fifth chapter
[2:25] and they are talking to Ananias and Saphira.
[2:28] Verse four says you have not lied unto men but unto God.
[2:33] Verse five says you have lied unto the Holy Spirit.
[2:37] So the Bible acknowledges the Holy Spirit as God.
[2:40] So when I look at the evidence
[2:43] I then begin to say I don’t think your looking at it balanced.
[2:47] Fourthly, I also consider what the pioneers did say versus what they didn’t.
[2:52] If you look back at Froom. You can look at James White.
[2:55] You can look at several of our pioneers
[2:56] They did speak against the Trinity but
[3:00] it wasn’t the concept of simply the word a group of three
[3:03] there was the principle of the Trinity
[3:06] what was popularly believed in those days was that
[3:11] God was one being that manifested Himself in three ways.
[3:16] And this was referred to as the Trinity
[3:19] You can look at certain pentecostal groups and apostolic groups
[3:21] and they still believe that today.
[3:22] They actually believe that Jesus is the Father
[3:24] He is the Son and then He is also the Holy Spirit.
[3:26] Well that is error. That is completely unbiblical.
[3:29] And you can use the baptism of Christ in Matthew 3 to disprove that
[3:33] Jesus is in the water. The Spirit of God comes upon Him like a dove
[3:36] and a voice from heaven says this is my Son in whom I am well pleased.
[3:40] There were three.
[3:41] So I don’t know how people can say that Jesus is all of them at the same time.
[3:44] So when the pioneers were speaking against it
[3:47] What I would challenge them to do is to go back to the pioneers
[3:50] and look at not so much what they said in word but what they understood in concept.
[3:55] They were not against the fact that there
[3:57] was God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
[3:59] But it was more so that they were against the idea of
[4:03] one being being manifested in three ways.
[4:05] and that is what I kept seeing when I finally said let me look up what the writers were saying
[4:10] Not just the fact that they just said
[4:11] the devilish doctrine of the Trinity.
[4:13] but more so what made it devilish?
[4:15] That to me from what I have seen when I listen to audioverse
[4:18] or whatever these organizations where people have preached on it
[4:21] that’s what I don’t see. I don’t see them qualifying
[4:24] what the pioneers were actually against.
[4:27] Were they against the word or were they against a concept
[4:30] connected with the word.
[4:31] And that for me has been the issue that kind of sealed it.
[4:35] Because when I went to Australia
[4:36] I literally had like anti-trinitarians like surrounding me
[4:39] I felt like a kid in a school fight.
[4:40] Literally it’s just like you know everybody was surrounding me and waiting outside for me.
[4:44] And I was just like “okay”
[4:45] They started “what about this”, “what about that”
[4:48] Because the anti-trinitarian movement was very very large in Australia when I was there.
[4:53] And we just started going by it step by step point by point.
[4:55] And as we did it they got mad.
[4:59] They just started getting mad. It turned into a bad situation.
[5:01] One of them tried to get a little violent but God delivered me from it.
[5:04] No seriously. I was standing here and I was going through my Bible
[5:09] and I was going through it point by point
[5:11] and the guy started talking over me
[5:13] So even when I’m talking, he’s talking over me
[5:15] and I said well I guess if your not going to listen to me then our studies over
[5:18] So then I put my Bible in my bag
[5:20] and then he went to my bag reached in my bag
[5:26] and said you will listen to me. And he stuck his hand in my bag.
[5:29] Now, in my mind I was going through a battle because I’m like
[5:32] Okay, if I try to stop him this is not going to look right and so and so
[5:36] Lord help me. And you ever heard of the Samoans?
[5:40] The Samoan brethren. The Samoans are kind of healthy, big.
[5:45] There was a Samoan brother sitting right there
[5:47] And when that man reached in my bag
[5:50] that Samoan brother looked at him and he got up
[5:53] and he picked that brother up in a bear hug
[5:56] literally wrapped him up. The guy was like this
[5:58] Wrapped him up, carried him to the door and said get out of here and leave that man alone.
[6:02] And I said well praise the Lord. The Lord sent an angel.
[6:05] I was like, praise God. I’ll take it.
[6:09] So the Lord delivered. So I was like amen.
[6:12] So you know again. There are two points on the pioneers
[6:16] Number one, they were growing in understanding
[6:18] Are pioneers use to believe in the 2520
[6:20] and they got to a point that they didn’t advocate it anymore.
[6:22] Our pioneers use to believe that the Sabbath started at six o’clock
[6:26] and then they got to an understanding that was broader.
[6:28] Our pioneers use to go ahead and say
[6:30] Oh the Godhead thing is not true and then later on they progressed.
[6:33] It was progressive for our brethren.
[6:35] We should not build our doctrines strictly off of what the pioneers believed.
[6:38] The pioneers were very much subject to error.
[6:40] And we need to stop treating them like they weren’t. Especially William Miller.
[6:43] That 2520 thing, I’m telling you….why are literally building it seems our
[6:52] teachings off of what pioneers taught. And our pioneers were very progressive
[6:57] and growing. So when I really talk with my brothers and sisters
[7:01] from the anti-trinitarian movement. I’m just like look
[7:05] Do you believe the Bible? Do you believe the Spirit of Prophecy?
[7:07] Do you accept what it says?
[7:08] They try to say that Evangelism 616 was manipulated.
[7:12] My problem with that is, if your saying Evangelism was manipulated
[7:18] or the writings of Ellen White, then how do we know what wasn’t manipulated?
[7:22] So now what you are doing is your putting me in a world that Satan would love
[7:26] which is now I can’t trust the writings anymore.
[7:28] So there’s traps upon traps that alot of these movements setup.
[7:33] I believe if God can show Ellen White that a little girl stole her bonnet
[7:38] then God can help Ellen White know if someone manipulated the writings.
[7:43] You understand that?
[7:44] So that is the position that I hold on it. I have a great study on it
[7:48] that I will send you. We can exchange emails. I will send you the whole thing.
[7:51] It is one of the most thorough studies.
[7:53] The brother that was in Australia and to me he did one of the most thorough
[7:57] studies on the anti-trinitarian movement. He made it really plain.
[8:01] So I would be happy to send it to you.
[8:03] I will send you all the notes on it.
Elder Dwayne Lemon claims the word Trinity simply by definition means a group of Three.
Article: The Word Trinity Simply Means Three Idea
Can you please explain these SOP statements?
We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ.” {Lt66-1894 (April 10, 1894) par. 18}
It is not essential for you to know and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, “the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in My name.” “I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you” [John 14:16, 17]. This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter…. {14MR 179.2}
The Holy Spirit is Christ’s representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally. Therefore it was for their interest that He should go to the Father, and send the Spirit to be His successor on earth. No one could then have any advantage because of his location or his personal contact with Christ. By the Spirit the Saviour would be accessible to all. In this sense He would be nearer to them than if He had not ascended on high. {DA 669.2}
There is no comforter like Christ, so tender and so true. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. His Spirit speaks to the heart.. . . . The influence of the Holy Spirit is the life of Christ in the soul. This Spirit works in and through every one who receives Christ. …. {RH, Oct.26, 1897 par. 15}
‘The Saviour is our Comforter. This I have proved Him to be.” – {8MR p. 49 July 16, 1892}
“There is no comforter like Christ, so tender and so true. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities. His Spirit speaks to the heart. ……The influence of the Holy Spirit is the life of Christ in the soul. This Spirit works in and through every one who receives Christ. {RH Oct. 26, 1897 Par. 15}
The reason why the churches are weak and sickly and ready to die, is that the enemy has brought influences of a discouraging nature to bear upon trembling souls. He has sought to shut Jesus from their view as the Comforter, as one who reproves, who warns, who admonishes them, saying, “This is the way, walk ye in it.” Christ has all power in heaven and in earth, and he can strengthen the wavering, and set right the erring…… {RH, August 26, 1890 par. 10}
The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality…… {20MR 324.2}
The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. {14MR 23.3}
The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ. {RH, April 5, 1906 par. 16}
The Holy Spirit was not yet fully manifested; for Christ had not yet been glorified. The more abundant impartation of the Spirit did not take place till after Christ’s ascension ….. Before the disciples could fulfill their official duties in connection with the church, Christ breathed His Spirit upon them …… {DA 805.2} The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ……… {DA 805.3}
So the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Saviour, pervades the soul, renews the motives and affections, and brings even the thoughts into obedience to the will of God, enabling the receiver to bear the precious fruit of holy deeds. {AA 284.1}
…..It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world’s Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church. {DA 671.2}
To me, these statements tell me that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, Christ divested of His humanity, in other words His divine self (both of which are independent of each other). Look a these:
While Jesus ministers in the sanctuary above, He is still by His Spirit the minister of the church on earth. He is withdrawn from the eye of sense, but His parting promise is fulfilled, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” Matthew 28:20. While He delegates His power to inferior ministers, His energizing presence is still with His church. {DA 166.2}
He is coming to us by His Holy Spirit today. Let us recognize Him now; then we shall recognize Him when He comes in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.” {RH, April 30, 1901 par. 8}
To me, if we don’t have the Spirit of Christ as our Holy Spirit, we won’t be able to recognize Jesus when He comes. What do you think? Also, what do you think about the vision on Early Writings pages 54 -56, especially 56.1, where satan is trying to do the works of God and people are asking for his spirit, thinking he was Jesus?
Rosie
Your comment has gone unanswered for nearly 2 years, so I suspect you may well have given up on any response. I hope not, although my two cents worth are clearly neither what nor from whom you intended. But I want to commend you for posting such a fine collection of SoP quotes – far better than Froom’s work or Lemon’s hasty, shallow attempt. I suspect, given the study evinced by your quotes, that you are actually already on pretty firm ground on this topic, in spite of the apparent RFC of your first question.
While it is ill advised to broadcast the ills of our brethren, it’s difficult to state simple truth plainly without treading on that ice. There is clearly a sharp division on this question, over a century since the passing of EGW. The most disappointing thing about it is the lack of brotherly love that is so often exhibited by some members on BOTH sides of the “aisle.” Sadly, both sides can be shown to ignore certain SoP statements in their attempts to “make their case,” even to the point of using her testimonies to bash those who will not come into agreement like good, little sheep. But the battle wages, so we all need to give due diligence and study to show ourselves….
What Lemon ventures is so weak that it’s tempting to engage, if not very difficult to avoid. Certain issues must NOT go unanswered, though: pretending that Froom’s kludge, Evangelism, is actually penned by Mrs. White, so questioning it is tantamount to doubting her in toto; insisting that non-trinitarians MUST have a problem reading, understanding and believing in both the Bible and the SoP, as if trinitarians have THE correct understanding, peroiod; muddying the water regarding what our pioneers believed as if they never settled on any unified doctrines, in spite of EGW’s CLEAR warnings that later movements in DENIAL of the validity of our pillars (see CW:”Preach the Word” quote below, for starters) would seek to promote a new religion.
This “new and improved” doctrine flies under the cute label: “present truth,” by people who seem convinced that they understand the important matters of the nature of the God we worship FAR BETTER than the mental midgets who founded the SDA church!
One such has rightly opined that those founders could/would not even be members under the current 28 point creed – a sorry truth, I fear. Shouldn’t this raise enough questions to merit diligent study?
And what of Mrs. White’s several CLEAR warnings AGAINST ANY of us trying to fill in blanks or wax eloquent on issues so far beyond our feeble understanding? What God has seen fit to share about Himself in plain and simple statements we can take to the bank, so to speak. The audacity of a trio of philosophers cranking out a tri-fold tome to explain God to the rest of us – it’s a horrifying travesty that begs the question: have THEY ever read Mrs. White on the subject – and concluded that she needed THEIR HELP?
Well, personally, I find the work of Terry Hill (a Brit who has studied this better than anyone else I’ve read YET) much more insightful. Not perfect, but much closer than the big-shots! It’s actually pretty hard to fault him on anything but minor trivia. His web site is named theprophetstillspeaks dot blah blah.
A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard-bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time.
We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God’s word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.—Preach the Word, p. 5 (1905) CW 32
And this jewel from 1SM, which you’ve probably seen: The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure.
Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 204,205}
I do not believe that our founding fathers were deficient in their understanding of what “trinitarian” meant nor what the Bible has to say, nor do I think Mrs. White was left in the dark while these men floundered in error. It is far easier to see the glaring flaws in the reasonings of our current “thought leaders,” who cannot even speak honestly about the history of the remnant church. Nor are their usual arguments against non-trinitarians indicative of the guidance of the very Spirit they claim to understand so well: semantics, name-calling, broad, sweeping generalizations — and an alarming naivete when it comes to what most non-trinitarians find so mystefying: how can we, why SHOULD we, be so bent upon kissing up to not just the DAUGHTER churches, but even the MOTHER?????
‘Nuf said.